An Interview
by
Annie from Dublin
In one of the articles you contributed to the Irish Dancing Magazine in 1998, you referred to ‘the Michael Flatley revolution’ in Irish Dance, indicating that you have no problem sharing the view of millions of non-expert onlookers that he is to be respected as the key hero figure in the New Age of Irish Dance. You also spoke on the special Tribute on the Late Late Show on Irish television for him in Dublin in March 1998. Would you like to comment here on his contribution, not only to the dance itself but also to Irish culture and Ireland as a whole?
I don’t let ignorant, jump-on-the-bandwagon critics tell me what to think about Flatley’s performance. I am not one of those Johnny-come-lately self-appointed critics. I am respected worldwide as the authority on Irish Dance history and have some 50 years experience as a dancer, teacher, adjudicator, and examiner.
So I don’t pay any heed to those who criticize Michael. I go by what I see, how I feel -- what I experience inside me like that shiver down my spine every time I see Flatley perform -- and I feel his performances. His shows are just sheer magic!
On his contribution -- whenever I’m lecturing on the history of Irish dancing, and I always talk about the key milestones in Irish Dancing -- one of the first great milestones was the advent of the travelling dance masters around the start of the 1700’s, and then the next milestone in the history of Irish Dancing was the foundation of the Gaelic League around that last decade of the 19th century, and the third great milestone was the advent of the Eurovision program and in particular of Michael Flatley.
So I would think that in my estimation that they are the 3 great milestones in Irish Dancing.
And Michael Flatley's contribution has been major -- mega -- because not only has he made it so world famous, so worldwide accepted, but he’s made the Irish accept it! He’s made the Irish people aware!
I’ve lectured here 40-odd years and I don’t have any problem saying a lot of my academic colleagues wouldn’t have seen dead talking to me about Irish Dancing in times past. Oh, they might have said politely ‘ oh I saw your photograph you won some major thing there at something or other ‘ and that was about the sum total of their interest. Nowadays, if I go to the Common room it’ll be, 'listen, I read a very good thing there about Flatley’ or, ‘I saw Riverdance’, and they’ll spend hours listening to me talking about Irish Dancing.
And while I’m sitting there pontificating on Flatley, I’m sitting there grinning from ear to ear, because he's brought about the social acceptability of dancing. They’re now looking at dancing in a totally new light.
His contribution has been absolutely mega. He has produced a company not just of dancers but they’re trained as some of the greatest stage artists in the world today. Their discipline, their behavior, it’s impeccable, I mean you don’t read about them like some of the rock stars -- that they’re drunk or beating up the wife and so on, divorced, married.
You look at these shows and they’re mega-shows and yet every one of them is so well behaved. Okay, there is a huge amount of discipline and I’ve seen that, and that is great because so many of them are young kids. Many of them are just children and they are coming out of school and earning big money. One day they have nothing in their pockets and the next they have bigger salary than I have here in the university! - Where did I go wrong?
But with that there is a frightening possibility of how wrong they could go, yet in all the shows, and there are now close to 1,000 dancers, I have really heard few, if any at all, negative stories, where such-a-one went off the deep end. There’s a tremendous discipline, and this is coming from within the shows.
And there’s a wonderful lady there, Marie Duffy, who choreographs for Michael, and I’ve know Marie nearly all her life - and by the way I mentioned a man earlier on, Matiu O’Mallaidaigh. And Marie was the teacher with Matt O’Mallaidaigh and choreographed some of the greatest shows even then.
Michael was looking around and he was looking for a right-hand lady and he spotted her talent, and she has carved out a tremendous, wonderful niche for herself and I absolutely say ‘Fair dues to her!’ I’m so delighted. We’re absolutely the greatest of friends and all that, and she is now, again a woman who really has received the recognition she deserves.
She was choreographing work here in Ireland no-one even knew what she was about. He saw her value, he saw her work and saw where she could go, and the two of them together, you know, bounced off each other, it’s fabulous.
Likewise, Daire Nolan was one of the quietest, shyest boys growing up you ever knew. Cian was different, that bit more exhibitionist, you know. And talking to Rose and Tony Nolan, his parents, when they saw him performing the first time in the show, they looked at each other and they could hardly believe that this was their son up there.
Now he wasn’t just going up dancing, he was acting in a major role in a famous show. He wasn’t just dancing, he had that audience eating out of his hand, and he was a complete actor. So there were hidden talents there, talents because I think to be a top Irish Dancer you have to be in some ways extrovert.
I know that in some ways contradicts what I said about Daire Nolan but you must have talents that are there in order to come out, but the shows gave a system, a means for to express those other aspects of that talent, to develop it to its fullest and to get them to use the whole body and expression and to act those parts, so ... and yet the whole discipline is there.
And I saw them, you know. They came back with me to that party in South Africa, and looking at that group there - there was like Daire Nolan, Bernadette Flynn, and they would have been among the oldies in the show then, and to me they’re still young children you know, and they were the ones who were controlling it, and they were out in Africa.
We had a fabulous night as I keep saying, because in South Africa it’s not easy to go out and enjoy yourself and party. You can’t live it up without knowing where you’re going, so Daire and all of those had to control all of that group, keep them occupied and know where they were going, and that’s big responsibility. And there wasn’t one of them I wouldn’t say I worship the ground, I was so proud.
There wasn’t one of them didn’t behave with dignity, made tremendous friends with all the South African people, and you know, you were so proud of them, so that all those talents and discipline.
And Marie’s very strong with discipline you know. I remember talking to Marie one night somewhere and I said ‘you’re a hard taskmaster. For God’s sake let them go’ you know, and she said to me ‘John, may I remind you, when you were teaching, what way were you? Did you leave your dancers to go off down the streets at night? Did you leave them to go wild?’
She said ‘remember these are young kids and they’re my responsibility.’ So she not only brought out the best in their dancing but they came to love and respect her, and in fear of her and in awe of her, and rightly so, because she was in many ways like a surrogate mother figure to them. These were 16, 17 year old kids that she was taking round the world, so yes, they respect Marie Duffy.
And I have dancers now, and they’re all grown up and they’re married and they have teenage children themselves, and I took them away to the continent to festivals and that, and we laugh and they joke how hard I was on the girls and how disciplined, and how the boys could get away with murder, and I say ‘yeah, but when you went away at that stage you were very young girls, some of you were 16, 17. I took you away and I brought you back the very same way. And if I’m to apologize for that I say No Way! and I hope now that you’re parents yourselves realize where I was coming from - maybe I wasn’t as hard on the boys but it was a different ballgame; I wasn’t bringing back a pregnant boy, and I sure as hell wasn’t bringing back a pregnant girl!
Discipline is all part of it, and Marie was a good disciplinarian, she took teams like that to the continent, had been doing it for years, and they won major festivals in the Dijon international festival, I had been there before with it, and it takes a lot of control and discipline to take a team of dancers away ... and it’s great, and I’m absolutely so happy for people like Marie Duffy.
One thing, which seems to set apart the shows that Michael Flatley creates, is the deep and complex reference in the storylines. Although he himself almost always dismisses them as ‘simple fairytales’ he did once admit about Lord of the Dance that it ‘could be read many different ways, and I intended it that way’, and it is certainly not difficult to analyze that story in mythological, political, historical, or even religious Irish context. The new Feet of Flames 2000 show is even more complex, richer, deeper and more learned in its Irish/Celtic historical reference. Composer Ronan Hardiman confirmed to me when I met him at the opening night last March that every detail of the show does have significance even though decision was made not to hint at that fact in the program book. Despite that debatable decision, do you think this content is one of the reasons for those shows’ extraordinary impact worldwide? And would you like to see it further exposed and explored by commentators?
I’m probably the least qualified person to look at that now and I’ll tell you why! Unfortunately when I go to the shows I get so carried away by the dancing, I’m looking so much at the steps, but I totally agree that it’s a shame that this is not put down somewhere, because I just go and see superficially and I imagine I’m blinded more than most, but I can imagine that detail is there and I can imagine Michael, because he is a stickler for detail, would research every aspect.
Aand it does set it apart from some of these other shows that are just very pale, poor imitations. It almost seems there is a need for an additional booklet, or pamphlet, to be sold at the show to develop the whole appreciation of that.
Finally, how do you view the future in the world of Irish Dance?
Ah, well, all I know is what happened on that night of the Eurovision Song Contest made changes to Irish Dancing that it can definitely never go back. It’s opened up a whole aspect of Irish Dancing in a non-competitive field.
The thing that’s kept Irish Dancing going for the past about 100 years has really been the competition, and competition is really like, as I say, a sort of necessary evil! We wouldn’t have had the standard of dance that we had if not for competition, but competition brings out the worst in us at the same time it’s like the Olympics are good because we wouldn’t have people running as fast as they are if they weren’t in competition.
But it does bring out the nasty side in us when we lose and we don’t win, but this has brought about a fascinating side to Irish Dancing, as I say, one which our teachers are still kind of grappling with and trying to recover - that is that dancing studios are now, to some extent training grounds for dancers for shows, and not necessarily for producing champions. I think the demand certainly for the shows seems to be as big as ever.
It has been a tremendous vehicle for conveying Irish culture, not just the dancing but the whole aspect of Irish culture throughout the world, and the thing has become so acceptable, like we learned Irish at school and because it was compulsory we rejected it, and here are these countries like England, Germany, South Africa, can’t get enough of Irish culture - not because it’s being rammed down their throats.
It’s being presented in a way that they’re absolutely enjoying it and loving it.
I don’t know what the future really holds for Irish Dancing, it’s hard to say. I wouldn’t like to see it lose its traditional roots, and though I at times do seem to come down very heavily against competition I’m not totally against competition, I would like to see that aspect of it continue on.
The shows have brought a huge professional and commercial aspect to the dancing but it’s also brought out hidden talents definitely in our teachers and it’s given them a whole reassessment of their work and their value. For example years ago I was talking about we should be running summer schools for Americans students coming over to Ireland for the summer and concentrate on summer schools where they could do a month or six weeks, and even give them certificates of credit, and this was at our Irish Dancing Commission meeting, and they said ‘ Yeah, and next John, you’ll want us to be awarding degrees!’ And I said ‘ask the question Why Not?! Who the hell else is going to award degrees in Irish Dancing if not us? We are the body, we are the academy. You know what is the problem? We don’t think enough of ourselves. We knock each other.’ And those words have come back to haunt many a person, now, because they just thought this was so funny, so silly, but I think this has given Irish Dancing teachers a realization that they were creating something, they were choreographing material.
They were making contributions and they didn’t really appreciate their own worth, they were knocking each other to the extent of sort of laughing at the idea that we should give any credits. Now, some universities like say, Boston - in America again - they run summer schools, they have dance programs, and they have Irish Dancing teachers in there lecturing and talking and doing workshops and so on - more on the workshop side of it. It still hasn’t come to pass here in Ireland.
The wall is still up there to a large extent. Maybe our Government should set up a National School of Traditional Irish Dance and fund that - after all it has now become one of our biggest money earners at home and abroad. It’s ironic the Government/Arts Council poured millions into ballet and produced ‘nothing’ in return - they poured nothing into our National Irish Dance and we delivered the best shows worldwide! - Oh well, a prophet in his own land...
This CelticCafeDANCERS mail list has already brought together over 200 Irish dancers and interested fans who enjoy discussing all aspects of the art. This includes step-by-step instructions of many of the dances seen in the major shows like Lord of the Dance, Feet of Flames, Riverdance, Dancing on Dangerous Ground, Gaelforce Dance, etc. Whether you're a dancer or a wanna-be dancer or just a fan interested in what goes into the world of Irish dance, this list is for you.
Cover Image Title and Description Irish Dancing Costumes, Their Origins and Evolution
Fascinating study of the evolution of costume in Irish Dancing, including unique period photographic record from as early as 1892.
123 pages. softcover. b/w photographs. First published 1996.
Aspects of the History of Irish Dancing in North America
Study og the history of Irish Dancing in Norht America from research begun when Dr. Cullinane was first invited to give workshops in San Francisco in 1972. Includes photographs and sections on different regions of North America, also details of costume evolution and feiseanna in North America.
99 pages. softcover. b/w phtographs. First published 1997.
Aspects of the History of Ceili Dancing 1897-1997
Produced to celebrate the centenary of the foundation of Ceili Dancing, includes valuable photographic records plus sections on the origins, the contribution of the Gaelic League, classification of Ceili Dances and an account of the First Ceili in London, 1897.
80 pages. softcover. b/w phtographs. First published 1998.
Aspects of the History of Irish Dancing in Ireland, England, New Zealand, North America and Australia
First look at world history of Irish Dancing. Includes excellent gallery of photographs, plus sections on the history of the Ceili dancing, the dancing masters, costumes, the Cork contribution, feiseanna, competition, dancing around the world.
185 pages. softcover. b/w photographs. First published 1987.
Further Aspects of the History of Irish Dancing (Ireland, Scotland, Canada, America, N. Zealand and Australia)
This is a real reference book, listing accounts of feseanna and competitions of various years in the different places, and is clearly meant to be read in conjunction with the first book of the title.
150 pages. softcover. b/w photographs. First published 1990.
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